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<josho> |
probably a stupid question, but in pygments how exactly do you use the builtin styles? specifically, if i wanted to use the 'emacs' style with the HtmlFormatter, the docs make it sound as though you simply instantiate the formatter like 'HtmlFormatter(style='emacs')', but when i try that (or if i instantiate the emacs style and pass that as 'style') the output i get from highlight() is no different than if i don't pass a |
| [02:27:29] |
<josho> |
also looking at the code, that appears to be the way it should work |
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* |
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<tux21b> |
josho, the htmlformatter has a method called get_style_defs() and the output of that should vary |
| [02:36:30] |
<tux21b> |
(the html source itself is the same, because styling is done with css) |
| [02:37:12] |
<josho> |
tux21b: ah, thank you, that makes a lot more sense now |
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<asmodai> |
Leonidas / birkenfeld : ok, no problem for that coin |
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* |
asmodai yawns |
| [09:48:08] |
<asmodai> |
feck, back at work |
| [09:48:24] |
<asmodai> |
I was actually at home in the weekend dreading going back to work. |
| [09:48:33] |
<asmodai> |
Clear sign I need a different environment, never had that |
| [09:48:39] |
<aat> |
:( |
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| [09:50:33] |
<asmodai> |
aat: hey you |
| [09:58:27] |
<asmodai> |
aat: sup mate? |
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<aat> |
nearly home time! |
| [09:59:35] |
<aat> |
woot! |
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<asmodai> |
aat: hahaha |
| [10:04:36] |
<asmodai> |
aat: So, what exactly do you do all day? ;) |
| [10:08:03] |
<prencher> |
mocks the fact that you don't like your job |
| [10:08:11] |
<aat> |
heh |
| [10:08:23] |
<asmodai> |
prencher: die :P |
| [10:08:37] |
<aat> |
i work on developing software to manage all our xen clusters |
| [10:08:47] |
<aat> |
using werkzeug of course ;) |
| [10:09:28] |
<asmodai> |
yay! |
| [10:09:30] |
<prencher> |
how do you manage the metadata for that? |
| [10:09:33] |
<prencher> |
bigass db? |
| [10:10:29] |
<davidcramer__> |
why not quite and find a job you like |
| [10:10:31] |
<aat> |
yeah |
| [10:10:33] |
<asmodai> |
Access. |
| [10:10:33] |
* |
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| [10:10:36] |
<asmodai> |
davidcramer: working on that. |
| [10:10:41] |
<aat> |
sqlalchemy + mysql |
| [10:11:01] |
<asmodai> |
rofl |
| [10:11:06] |
<asmodai> |
so I check and 'lo and behold: |
| [10:11:19] |
<asmodai> |
Know Python? |
| [10:11:20] |
<asmodai> |
www.google.ie/jobs Google is looking for Python gurus. Join our Dublin office! |
| [10:11:36] |
<davidcramer> |
haha, you live in dublin or around i take it? |
| [10:11:41] |
<asmodai> |
Netherlands |
| [10:11:50] |
<davidcramer> |
I'm American, so no clue where that is ;) |
| [10:12:20] |
<aat> |
heh |
| [10:13:39] |
* |
davidcramer notes to take a semester on geography |
| [10:14:49] |
<asmodai> |
It's near Portugal |
| [10:15:18] |
<davidcramer> |
Either I know less than I thought, or you're trying to pull a fast one :) |
| [10:18:05] |
<asmodai> |
hahahaha |
| [10:18:13] |
<asmodai> |
a job open at the university I worked for before |
| [10:18:16] |
<asmodai> |
rofl |
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<aat> |
take it and ask for triple the money :) |
| [11:56:24] |
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<mira|AO> |
http://dev.pocoo.org/projects/lodgeit/ has a 404 link: |
| [11:56:47] |
<mira|AO> |
* Fill in a new [32]Bug-report / Feature-request |
| [11:56:55] |
<mira|AO> |
it seems impossible to do so, so I'll do it here: |
| [11:57:13] |
<mira|AO> |
when using a paste, ?linenos=no does not change anything, they are still displayed |
| [11:57:29] |
<prencher> |
mira|AO - go here: http://dev.pocoo.org/projects/werkzeug/register and register |
| [11:57:31] |
<mira|AO> |
this is especially annoying since they are displayed atop of the paste instead of to its left, so you have to scroll a lot |
| [11:57:36] |
<prencher> |
then go to lodgeit and login & file |
| [11:57:51] |
<prencher> |
then yell at mitsuhiko for still not having fixed the register handler everywhere |
| [11:57:59] |
<mira|AO> |
suggestion: check the USER_AGENT case-insensitively for "lynx/" and "l_y_n_x" and *never* display line numbers in that case |
| [11:58:20] |
<mira|AO> |
grml… yet another useless user account at one site I'll forget anyway |
| [11:58:33] |
<mira|AO> |
but thanks |
| [12:07:26] |
<mira|AO> |
after logging in, I get |
| [12:07:27] |
<mira|AO> |
Warning: Can't synchronize with the repository (Unsupported version control system "hg". Check that the |
| [12:07:27] |
<mira|AO> |
Python support libraries for "hg" are correctly installed.) |
| [12:08:03] |
<mira|AO> |
ah no, before. |
| [12:11:44] |
<mira|AO> |
lol |
| [12:11:51] |
<mira|AO> |
preferences → account first gives a 404, now a 500 |
| [12:12:07] |
<mira|AO> |
TemplateNotFound: Template "prefs_account.html" not found |
| [12:28:47] |
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| [12:30:38] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO: what browser do you have? |
| [12:30:59] |
<mitsuhiko> |
for the lodgeit bug, not the trac bug |
| [12:35:04] |
<mira|AO> |
lynx, of course |
| [12:35:31] |
<hads> |
but of course. |
| [12:38:28] |
<aa_> |
browser of champions |
| [12:39:07] |
<prencher> |
hey ho grumpy |
| [12:39:24] |
<aa_> |
hello prenchy |
| [12:39:48] |
<prencher> |
away from me glashammer heathen! |
| [12:40:20] |
<mira|AO> |
is there any other browser? :) |
| [12:40:21] |
<aa_> |
prencher: thought of a new way to market glashammer! |
| [12:40:28] |
* |
mira|AO is even lynx contributor |
| [12:40:46] |
<aa_> |
prencher: what I do is tell the werkzeugish people that it's great for getting started, and easy to swap out when you get to tinkering stage |
| [12:41:03] |
<grumpy> |
prencher: you trying to wake me up, too tired for intelligent conversation today :-( |
| [12:41:35] |
<prencher> |
aa_ - but those are lies! |
| [12:41:46] |
<prencher> |
grumpy - hehe, not really :) |
| [12:41:54] |
<prencher> |
baby still keeping you up then? |
| [12:41:56] |
<aa_> |
prencher: no, they are truths |
| [12:43:27] |
<grumpy> |
prencher: stressful work day, anyway, baby must have heard you as she just started making noises |
| [12:44:00] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO: lynx is probably the worst browser you can use these days |
| [12:44:03] |
<asmodai> |
aat: I sent an email |
| [12:44:15] |
<prencher> |
grumpy - then i have done my job :) |
| [12:44:16] |
<mitsuhiko> |
it's even unable to render tables properly |
| [12:44:53] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO: if you feel like it, you can implement a separate user interface for text browsers, but i'm not so sure if that's useful |
| [12:45:00] |
<mitsuhiko> |
i recommend lodgeit.py for console sessions |
| [12:47:22] |
* |
mitsuhiko wonders why people still use lynx these days |
| [12:48:14] |
<mira|AO> |
because it's the best browser available for text stuff |
| [12:48:21] |
<mira|AO> |
especially nopaste field editing ;) |
| [12:48:38] |
<mira|AO> |
and it's fast, displays everything you want, and you're not bugged by javascript, flash ,ads, etc. |
| [12:48:42] |
<mira|AO> |
plus, I don't need the mouse |
| [12:48:53] |
<mira|AO> |
in fact, I can't find mine any more since 2 years or so… |
| [12:49:20] |
<mira|AO> |
does lodgeit.py support https with htaccess authentification? :D |
| [12:49:42] |
<mira|AO> |
anyway, less apps = better, so I’d prefer sticking with lynx |
| [12:49:42] |
<grumpy> |
prencher: you are lucky was able to get her down to sleep again quickly :-( |
| [12:50:21] |
<prencher> |
hehe |
| [12:50:42] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO: elinks is way superior than lynx for text browsing |
| [12:51:15] |
<mitsuhiko> |
at least in my opinion. it has basic css support, knows tables and frames and is actively maintained |
| [12:51:21] |
<mira|AO> |
no, it's much worse |
| [12:51:31] |
<mira|AO> |
it doesn't have links-and-form-fields-are-numbered |
| [12:51:36] |
<mira|AO> |
it doesn't have textfields-need-activation |
| [12:51:42] |
<mira|AO> |
it can't spawn an external editor on a textfield |
| [12:51:47] |
<mira|AO> |
it doesn't do unicode properly |
| [12:52:02] |
<mira|AO> |
its way of doing tables and frames hinders proper navigation without a mouse |
| [12:52:08] |
<mira|AO> |
and lynx is more actively maintained :) |
| [12:52:16] |
<mira|AO> |
oh, and it does SSL certificate validation. |
| [12:53:00] |
<aa_> |
sounds like firefox |
| [12:53:25] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO: you can number links and form fields in elinks, what's textfields-need-activation? |
| [12:55:08] |
<mira|AO> |
that you need to press return or → to activate a text field before entering any text |
| [12:55:29] |
<mira|AO> |
it's useful for these who use space and b for scrolling and especially numbers for navigation |
| [12:56:22] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO: at least here i have to "enter" on a field to type something into it |
| [12:56:30] |
<mira|AO> |
besides, lynx is the browser of choice for blind people that don't use a screen reader ;) |
| [12:56:31] |
<mira|AO> |
hmm |
| [12:56:40] |
<mira|AO> |
then I'm probably confusing elinks with links+ |
| [12:56:44] |
<mira|AO> |
haven't used both in a while |
| [12:56:59] |
<mitsuhiko> |
oh. and you can open an external editor |
| [12:57:19] |
<mira|AO> |
hmm ok |
| [12:57:29] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO: i think the days when blind people used lynx was long ago |
| [12:57:36] |
<mira|AO> |
nah, I know some who still do |
| [12:57:38] |
<mitsuhiko> |
the blind people i know have modern browsing engines :) |
| [12:57:41] |
<mira|AO> |
s/know/know of/ |
| [12:58:19] |
<mira|AO> |
still, lynx does SSL certificate validation |
| [12:58:24] |
<mira|AO> |
oh, and gopher :D |
| [12:58:31] |
<mira|AO> |
(yeah, these two sites…) |
| [12:58:34] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO: f4 opens external editor in elinks |
| [12:58:36] |
<mitsuhiko> |
just checked |
| [12:58:38] |
<mira|AO> |
and I develop for it |
| [12:58:45] |
<mira|AO> |
oh, F4? that's a PC specific thing |
| [12:58:49] |
<mira|AO> |
what about my SPARCstation? |
| [12:59:09] |
<mitsuhiko> |
man elinkskeys |
| [12:59:25] |
<mira|AO> |
look, I don't want to change the browser when the current one has everything I need |
| [12:59:38] |
<mira|AO> |
your nopaste thing has obviously a bug if jehovascript is disabled |
| [12:59:59] |
<mitsuhiko> |
that linenos thing seems to be broken, i'll fix that |
| [13:00:03] |
<mira|AO> |
thanks ;) |
| [13:00:08] |
<mitsuhiko> |
but i can't get lynx render the line numbers next to the code |
| [13:00:13] |
<mitsuhiko> |
that's i think the root of the problem |
| [13:00:15] |
<mira|AO> |
not really, true |
| [13:00:20] |
<mira|AO> |
I'd just switch them off |
| [13:00:22] |
<mira|AO> |
or use <ol> |
| [13:00:24] |
<mitsuhiko> |
maybe a separate text browser mode would be the way to go |
| [13:00:28] |
<mira|AO> |
and a pre tag per <li> |
| [13:00:30] |
<mitsuhiko> |
<ol> is not copy/pasteable |
| [13:00:31] |
<mira|AO> |
mmh |
| [13:00:40] |
<mira|AO> |
right, but line numbers aren't either |
| [13:00:50] |
<mira|AO> |
other option is to just switch them off for lynx |
| [13:00:58] |
<mira|AO> |
I gave the two regexen in my PR |
| [13:01:29] |
<mira|AO> |
bbl, lunch break |
| [13:15:05] |
<aa_> |
mira|AO: can I check once again that I can steal zine.forms under MIT/BSD? |
| [13:15:08] |
<aa_> |
oops |
| [13:15:11] |
<aa_> |
mitsuhiko: ^^ |
| [13:19:38] |
<asmodai> |
there's nothing else but MIT/BSD :D |
| [13:20:04] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: recently I think GPL won't eat my cat |
| [13:21:38] |
<asmodai> |
lies! |
| [13:21:41] |
<asmodai> |
You've been corrupted! |
| [13:21:53] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: well, the GPL pretty much ate me |
| [13:22:08] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: in PIDA terms, we wanted to use too many GPL'd tools, and integrate them tightly |
| [13:22:11] |
<asmodai> |
tss |
| [13:22:26] |
<asmodai> |
*scratches aa_ from his christmas card list* |
| [13:22:26] |
<aa_> |
and well, I had to say "screw licensing, I need a good IDE" |
| [13:24:34] |
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* |
asmodai prods Leonidas |
| [13:32:14] |
<Leonidas> |
hi asmodai |
| [13:32:18] |
<asmodai> |
hey dude |
| [13:32:26] |
<asmodai> |
Leonidas: did you want to have the coated or full silver one? |
| [13:32:33] |
<Leonidas> |
asmodai: the coated |
| [13:32:42] |
<asmodai> |
ok and birkenfeld wanted the full one right? |
| [13:32:47] |
<Leonidas> |
but I have to go now, I'll return in about 45 minutes |
| [13:32:54] |
<Leonidas> |
asmodai: yeah, the one for 18€ |
| [13:42:32] |
* |
mira|AO wonders why there seems to be only a quite limited number of developers, who are however distributed over a lot of projects… |
| [13:42:42] |
<mira|AO> |
you see the same people everywhere |
| [13:45:16] |
<grumpy> |
miralAO: do you mean developers who actually submit code, or do you mean people who participate in ric channels for diverse applications? |
| [13:45:40] |
<mira|AO> |
hm, I think the latter ;) |
| [13:46:37] |
<mira|AO> |
it's weird though to see someone write as grumpy… I still connect that with Miod Vallat, although his irc nick is different |
| [13:47:13] |
<grumpy> |
It is not universal. The smart ones know they can learn from others and other applications even though they may not submit code to them or even use them. |
| [13:47:24] |
<mira|AO> |
yup |
| [13:47:53] |
<grumpy> |
The pretentious ones stick to their own little domain and often think they know so much better than others but don't really. |
| [13:48:30] |
<mira|AO> |
maybe developing BSD helps… you _have_ to get in touch with many other projects that way |
| [13:48:46] |
<mira|AO> |
(for example, this is how I came to contribute to lynx) |
| [13:50:33] |
<asmodai> |
Ah |
| [13:50:38] |
<asmodai> |
you're associated with MirOS? |
| [13:50:50] |
<mira|AO> |
yes ;) |
| [13:50:56] |
<asmodai> |
ahh ok |
| [13:51:04] |
<asmodai> |
<-- used to be @freebsd.org |
| [13:51:10] |
<mira|AO> |
yeah, I know your name |
| [13:51:21] |
<mira|AO> |
from many little places… |
| [13:51:32] |
<asmodai> |
hahaha |
| [13:51:45] |
<asmodai> |
My infamy tracks me |
| [13:51:53] |
<mira|AO> |
(: |
| [13:52:37] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO unveils the dark truth about asmodai |
| [13:52:58] |
<aa_> |
that's nothing, I knew him on #python Undernet! |
| [13:53:09] |
<aa_> |
those are the really dark places! |
| [13:53:35] |
<asmodai> |
mitsuhiko: What dark truth? |
| [13:53:53] |
<mitsuhiko> |
aa_: darker than #php on quakenet? |
| [13:54:24] |
<aa_> |
eek, I am scared |
| [14:04:04] |
<asmodai> |
mitsuhiko: hey |
| [14:04:06] |
<asmodai> |
mitsuhiko: you |
| [14:04:13] |
<TheSheep> |
get out of my cloud! |
| [14:06:31] |
<asmodai> |
what cloud? |
| [14:07:32] |
<aa_> |
mitsuhiko: zine.utils.forms -> MIT/BSD ? just checking? |
| [14:09:36] |
<prencher> |
happy bday aa_, almost legal now :) |
| [14:09:39] |
<TheSheep> |
asmodai: just remembered a song |
| [14:11:47] |
<aa_> |
prencher: legal for what? don't get any ideas you old perv |
| [14:12:15] |
<prencher> |
oh me and asmodai have some plans |
| [14:12:28] |
<TheSheep> |
aa_: for drinking, for example |
| [14:12:40] |
<TheSheep> |
*with |
| [14:12:56] |
<Leonidas> |
asmodai: ok, I'm back |
| [14:13:04] |
<aa_> |
I don't drink, it is against my religion |
| [14:13:35] |
<mira|AO> |
drinking? mh, 15 or so… :P |
| [14:13:49] |
<mira|AO> |
ok, 16 is legal, but whatever |
| [14:14:34] |
<TheSheep> |
hrm, how about starting a company then :P |
| [14:14:47] |
<prencher> |
oh please don't get him started |
| [14:14:47] |
<Leonidas> |
mira|AO: depends where you live. |
| [14:14:51] |
<mira|AO> |
14 with parental consent, 18 without ;) |
| [14:14:54] |
<mira|AO> |
leonidas, ja |
| [14:15:04] |
<aa_> |
ok, seriously, what is a good UI for choosing one of a huge list of items |
| [14:15:07] |
<Leonidas> |
mira|AO: here beer is not considered alcohol even :D |
| [14:15:12] |
<mira|AO> |
hehe |
| [14:15:19] |
<asmodai> |
Leonidas: :) |
| [14:15:32] |
<asmodai> |
Leonidas: Well, I can do that coin and birks, no problem. |
| [14:15:44] |
* |
asmodai just wondered if mitsuhiko wanted a coated or full one too |
| [14:16:29] |
<aa_> |
no one got a good ui for choosing one of a list? |
| [14:16:52] |
<Leonidas> |
asmodai: thats great, thank you. Do you know how much shipping would cost? |
| [14:18:18] |
<maze> |
aa_, build a nice ajax pager? |
| [14:18:57] |
<mira|AO> |
ugh. |
| [14:19:03] |
<mira|AO> |
remember the lynx users :) |
| [14:20:35] |
<maze> |
on in that case: use most/less, aa :) |
| [14:20:37] |
<aa_> |
mitsuhiko: I have no lynx users, I might even possibly be able to force all users to use firefox |
| [14:21:01] |
<mitsuhiko> |
asmodai: i want one? :) |
| [14:21:06] |
<mitsuhiko> |
asmodai: well if you can get me one i take one :) |
| [14:21:13] |
<asmodai> |
coated r full silver? |
| [14:21:18] |
<asmodai> |
Leonidas: don't worry about that now |
| [14:21:19] |
<mitsuhiko> |
i'm fine with the full silver one if it makes less troubles |
| [14:21:21] |
<asmodai> |
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1768855/how/ |
| [14:21:33] |
<asmodai> |
mitsuhiko: for the coated one I need to wait for my neighbours to be back |
| [14:21:40] |
<asmodai> |
mitsuhiko: the silver I can order with less issues |
| [14:22:24] |
* |
Leonidas has really trouble deciding which one. |
| [14:22:49] |
<Leonidas> |
On one hand, it surely is cool, OTOH I'm not even a poor student. |
| [14:24:34] |
<mira|AO> |
firefox sucks… |
| [14:24:53] |
<mira|AO> |
opera and webkit-stuff are much nicer to the environment |
| [14:26:51] |
* |
mitsuhiko can't agree |
| [14:27:10] |
<mitsuhiko> |
firefox is a great browser, there is nothing wrong with it |
| [14:27:43] |
<asmodai> |
it's ok |
| [14:27:49] |
<prencher> |
and gecko is quite a bit more robust, even if webkit is tiny and fast and best thing ever |
| [14:28:11] |
<prencher> |
of course when you say that webkit users just go LALALALACANTHEARYOU |
| [14:28:45] |
<aa_> |
have we got pytthon webkit on windows yet? |
| [14:30:04] |
<grumpy> |
real men use telnet :-) |
| [14:30:34] |
<asmodai> |
the gecko code base still is icky |
| [14:32:04] |
<mitsuhiko> |
prencher: for having xul and half the browser being implemented in javascript it's incredible responsive :) |
| [14:32:28] |
<birkenfeld> |
hi @all |
| [14:32:43] |
<mira|AO> |
firesomething is great if you ignore trademark issues, have more than a gig of _free_ RAM, and enough time to spend until it starts |
| [14:33:02] |
<asmodai> |
birkenfeld! |
| [14:33:06] |
<mira|AO> |
ah, and time to install a bazillion extensions required for basic functionality, such as rebinding keys, etc. which are all part of Opera’s base |
| [14:33:28] |
* |
asmodai adds High House War |
| [14:33:31] |
<prencher> |
yeah yeah opera is amazing yadda yadda |
| [14:33:38] |
<birkenfeld> |
sigh, I'm so sick of zealots |
| [14:33:44] |
<asmodai> |
birkenfeld: where? |
| [14:33:57] |
<birkenfeld> |
asmodai: anywhere |
| [14:34:02] |
<asmodai> |
/soothe |
| [14:34:20] |
<aa_> |
man, where would FOSS be without zealots |
| [14:34:26] |
<mitsuhiko> |
hi birkenfeld :) |
| [14:34:27] |
<mira|AO> |
opera isn't OSS |
| [14:34:28] |
<mira|AO> |
;) |
| [14:34:31] |
* |
aa_ throws gim7 at birkenfeld |
| [14:34:37] |
<aa_> |
oops gvim7 |
| [14:34:49] |
<mitsuhiko> |
mira|AO: safari consumes more memory than firefox here |
| [14:34:54] |
* |
grumpy has quit IRC |
| [14:34:56] |
* |
leche has quit IRC |
| [14:35:00] |
* |
birkenfeld throws back the "g" and uses vim quite happily for SVN commit messages |
| [14:35:09] |
<mitsuhiko> |
:D |
| [14:35:11] |
<mira|AO> |
dunno, I don't have a Safari here |
| [14:35:15] |
<mitsuhiko> |
birkenfeld: why not e to the macs? |
| [14:35:49] |
<prencher> |
emacs, there's a great webbrowser |
| [14:35:57] |
<mira|AO> |
I just use opera in compat_linux(8) when lynx (or, more rarely, my manga viewer links+) is not enough |
| [14:36:05] |
<prencher> |
i believe it edits text too now |
| [14:36:09] |
<mira|AO> |
hehe |
| [14:36:14] |
<birkenfeld> |
I wonder when Apple comes and says they copyrighted "eMacs" |
| [14:36:15] |
<mira|AO> |
did someone finally port ed to emacs? |
| [14:36:35] |
<mira|AO> |
s/copyright/trademark/ |
| [14:36:40] |
<mira|AO> |
but yeah, quite possible. |
| [14:36:41] |
<birkenfeld> |
yeah, whatever |
| [14:37:15] |
<aa_> |
I use Ronny's IDE thing |
| [14:37:51] |
<aa_> |
which is like better than vim and emacs combined |
| [14:38:16] |
<TheSheep> |
real hackers use a butterfly |
| [14:38:23] |
<asmodai> |
rofl USA has a National Institute of Health, aka NIH. I wonder if they are doomed to repeat themselves. |
| [14:38:33] |
<mira|AO> |
haha |
| [14:38:55] |
<aa_> |
not to mention "the knights who say.." |
| [14:38:59] |
<asmodai> |
aa_: :) |
| [14:40:01] |
<birkenfeld> |
anyway, got to go back and finish the book |
| [14:40:53] |
<asmodai> |
The point is, there is just no funding because basic research is generally funded by the government and the government will not fund stem cell work. |
| [14:41:01] |
<asmodai> |
We have cells that reverse paralysis in sheep that have spina bifida and can’t walk. After we injected our cells, the first animal that we treated returned to normal and was walking fine. The same model could work for paralyzed humans, but without funding, we haven’t been able to repeat the experiment in five years. People are in wheelchairs when there could be a cure. |
| [14:41:31] |
<mira|AO> |
uh oh, ethical questions |
| [14:42:02] |
<asmodai> |
Rather than curing disease, we’re trying to get around theological problems. It’s not what I signed up for in medical school. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve thrown my hands up and said, “Enough, I can’t take it anymore,” but then I’m back the next day. We’re crippled, but they can’t stop us forever. |
| [14:42:09] |
<asmodai> |
http://discovermagazine.com/2008/sep/19-fighting-for-the-right-to-clone/article_view?b_start:int=0&-C= |
| [14:42:13] |
<asmodai> |
great article |
| [14:42:20] |
* |
Kaelten has quit IRC |
| [14:42:37] |
* |
mira|AO could bring contra-arguments, but… |
| [14:42:43] |
<mira|AO> |
this would just start a flamewar |
| [14:42:48] |
<aa_> |
nah, bring it |
| [14:42:50] |
<asmodai> |
:) |
| [14:42:53] |
<mira|AO> |
ok |
| [14:42:56] |
<aa_> |
we have medical experts here |
| [14:43:00] |
<mira|AO> |
medical school means he's a doctor |
| [14:43:04] |
<aa_> |
and theological experts! |
| [14:43:08] |
<mira|AO> |
doctors have sworn to keep life |
| [14:43:10] |
<mira|AO> |
and not to kill it |
| [14:43:16] |
<asmodai> |
Not necessarily a doctor. |
| [14:43:21] |
<mira|AO> |
mmh ok |
| [14:43:29] |
<mira|AO> |
but there is still the oath of hippokrates |
| [14:43:30] |
<aa_> |
mira|AO: what they have sworn and what they actually do is very different |
| [14:43:34] |
<mira|AO> |
mmh |
| [14:43:38] |
<mira|AO> |
I know… |
| [14:43:39] |
<aa_> |
mira|AO: yes, perhaps in 1885 |
| [14:43:54] |
<aa_> |
but not these days. There are many more considerations |
| [14:44:00] |
<mira|AO> |
I wouldn’t want to be in that situation |
| [14:44:02] |
<TheSheep> |
the oath contains a promise of never touching the patient with a knife, for example |
| [14:44:08] |
<aa_> |
and one of those is "quality of life" |
| [14:44:15] |
<mira|AO> |
I had a hard time living with killing humans which just became living… |
| [14:44:22] |
<aa_> |
the modern version of the oath is "Do no harm" |
| [14:44:28] |
<mira|AO> |
yes, some things conflict |
| [14:44:42] |
<aa_> |
mira|AO: and I have actually been in that exact position |
| [14:44:49] |
<mira|AO> |
oh ok |
| [14:45:21] |
<asmodai> |
I think daily "do no harm" when I want to kill some coworker ;) |
| [14:45:27] |
<mira|AO> |
hehe |
| [14:45:32] |
<aa_> |
unlike the guy there, I was "screw this, I can help people in another way" |
| [14:45:45] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: well, in that case maybe the benefits outweigh the harm :D |
| [14:46:15] |
<asmodai> |
The thing is, if stem cell/cloning can ultimately help people with chronic diseases and what not, are you fulfilling your oath or not? :) |
| [14:46:58] |
<mira|AO> |
some people say, do no bad in order to do good |
| [14:47:21] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: imho, you should do the research |
| [14:47:22] |
<mira|AO> |
in the end, I wouldn't want to have to decide that, especially for others |
| [14:47:49] |
<aa_> |
mira|AO: and that is the problem. I have fought to keep people alive against my bosses, heck I nearly got sacked for not pulling the plug on someone |
| [14:47:59] |
<aa_> |
mira|AO: and since then I saw the guy get better an dleave hospital |
| [14:48:08] |
<aa_> |
this happens *all the time* |
| [14:48:12] |
<asmodai> |
*nod* |
| [14:48:17] |
<aa_> |
and I just got fed up with "playing god" |
| [14:48:36] |
<asmodai> |
aa_: but, there's also cases of people in coma for many, many years. Those are tough. |
| [14:48:50] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: yeah, but that's it, who knows, who chooses? |
| [14:49:11] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: there is no solution, I just know that "it's not for me thanks very much" |
| [14:49:22] |
<asmodai> |
Tough choices indeed. |
| [14:49:38] |
<asmodai> |
I am glad my uncle could choose euthanasia a number of years ago in my country. |
| [14:49:52] |
<aa_> |
well, people should be allowed to choose |
| [14:50:08] |
<aa_> |
but then there is an element that the medical profession should know better than individuals what is best for them |
| [14:50:12] |
<asmodai> |
His was a chronic cancer that was untreatable. And he was slowly wasting away, moisture in his body affecting his bones and all that. |
| [14:50:16] |
<asmodai> |
Yeah. |
| [14:50:19] |
<aa_> |
(and so help with a guided informed decision) |
| [14:50:31] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: sounds horrible :( |
| [14:51:05] |
<asmodai> |
It was, skin bursting and bones getting brittle sucks. So for him it was all ok to end it like that. |
| [14:51:13] |
<asmodai> |
For us too btw :) |
| [14:51:33] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: right, but I have seen people cured from that state |
| [14:51:44] |
<aa_> |
very very few, but it does happen |
| [14:51:50] |
<asmodai> |
mmm |
| [14:51:57] |
<asmodai> |
Choices, choices. |
| [14:52:03] |
<aa_> |
there is no solution |
| [14:52:18] |
<aa_> |
just thank goodness I don't have to murder people on a daily absis ever again |
| [14:53:56] |
<asmodai> |
Mmm, murder has a bit of a very negative association |
| [14:54:08] |
<mira|AO> |
it still may be that |
| [14:54:12] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: well, what do you call killing people against their will? |
| [14:54:22] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: euthanasia is different, you have consent... |
| [14:54:33] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: but people who are not conscious to make that decision? |
| [14:54:34] |
<asmodai> |
What situation are you referring to then? |
| [14:54:45] |
<asmodai> |
But you never know if they gain conscious again, ever? |
| [14:54:47] |
<aa_> |
asmodai: specifically Intensive Care Medicine |
| [14:54:54] |
<aa_> |
exactly, you never know |
| [14:55:07] |
<aa_> |
and statistics say 89.4% will never regain consciousness |
| [14:55:07] |
<asmodai> |
Until a good number of years ago such people would've just died. |
| [14:55:11] |
<aa_> |
exacty |
| [14:55:19] |
<asmodai> |
We now have a chance to see if they come back. |
| [14:55:30] |
<asmodai> |
But should you keep every single one of them comatose until the end of days? |
| [14:55:37] |
<aa_> |
exactly |
| [14:55:44] |
<aa_> |
so who decides |
| [14:55:47] |
<asmodai> |
*nod* |
| [14:55:50] |
<aa_> |
Dr God |
| [14:56:06] |
<prencher> |
this is why people should make a decision before something happens |
| [14:56:11] |
<asmodai> |
If there even exists a god (or plural) I am sure he slashed his wrists long ago :D |
| [14:56:39] |
<aa_> |
prencher: but even then you can't say what situation you will be in |
| [14:56:54] |
* |
asmodai has a donor codicil though :D |
| [14:56:59] |
<aa_> |
it's too varied for a non-professional specialist to know |
| [14:57:57] |
<prencher> |
i dont know.. saying 'if i've been a coma for N years and things don't seem to be improving, turn off the machine' seems rather sensible to me |
| [14:58:46] |
<asmodai> |
prencher: problem is that family members might try to overturn said decisions in some countries :S |
| [14:58:46] |
<prencher> |
then after N years, it'd be on the doctors/family to decide |
| [15:02:30] |
<asmodai> |
I can understand that some doctors never signed up to make such decisions |
| [15:03:25] |
<prencher> |
yarr |
| [15:03:52] |
<asmodai> |
Pirate's day has passed. |
| [15:04:03] |
<aa_> |
prencher: actually, most of the tough questions are in the first few weeks not years |
| [15:04:17] |
<aa_> |
prencher: but yes, your solution is a good one for the months/years thing |
| [15:06:58] |
* |
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| [15:23:07] |
* |
maix has quit IRC |
| [15:24:57] |
* |
stifal has joined #pocoo |
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* |
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| [15:37:28] |
* |
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| [15:40:43] |
<asmodai> |
birkenfeld: http://malazan.in-nomine.org/wiki/Deck_of_Dragons#High_House_War |
| [15:40:49] |
<asmodai> |
birkenfeld: from the top of my mind |
| [16:00:10] |
* |
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| [16:08:31] |
<Leonidas> |
asmodai: what is this fantasy thing, that you two were discussing lately? |
| [16:09:40] |
<asmodai> |
Leonidas: The Malazan Book of the Fallen |
| [16:10:07] |
* |
Leonidas looks up in Amazon |
| [16:10:14] |
<asmodai> |
Steven Erikson |
| [16:11:39] |
<Leonidas> |
I see, these books are pretty cheap on amazon. |
| [16:12:13] |
* |
Leonidas still has to read some more Stephenson |
| [16:13:13] |
<asmodai> |
I prefer the UK/Canadian English versions though |
| [16:16:12] |
<prencher> |
today in pocoo bookclub, asmodai gives everyone a car! |
| [16:16:17] |
<prencher> |
thanks asmodai! |
| [16:19:16] |
<asmodai> |
a car? :| |
| [16:19:24] |
<asmodai> |
I ain't bloody Oprah |
| [16:19:56] |
<prencher> |
no, cars, plural - one each |
| [16:22:20] |
<asmodai> |
pshaw |
| [16:25:10] |
* |
Leonidas trades his car for a cdr. |
| [16:25:36] |
<Leonidas> |
asmodai: because the canadian versions have better covers? |
| [16:26:47] |
<asmodai> |
also |
| [16:26:52] |
<asmodai> |
but also because of the English used |
| [16:26:57] |
<asmodai> |
I was raised with the Queen's English! |
| [16:27:16] |
* |
mira|AO was raised with latin :p |
| [16:27:52] |
<asmodai> |
In nomine nostri dei luciferi satanas excelsi! |
| [16:27:57] |
<asmodai> |
:P |
| [16:28:04] |
<mira|AO> |
lol ja |